The secret to authentic leadership? Stop trying.

PADMA LAKSHMI: No matter what they do, what this administration does with ICE or border patrol or any of the other ways they’re trying to impede the natural progression of what this country looks like, they want a white America, they do. And it’s too late. My child’s blood is just as red as theirs. I know that I turn some people who don’t think like me off. Yes, of course I’m afraid of losing business, but I’m more afraid of losing my soul.

BOB SAFIAN: That’s Padma Lakshmi, TV host, author, producer, and now series creator of CBS’s upcoming America’s Culinary Cup, premiering Wednesday, March 4th. Padma and I have chatted before about the intersection of business and food and culture, and I wanted to know why she’s eager to shake up food media right now after leaving Top Chef. I was also curious about her take on the U.S. government’s crackdown on immigration as an immigrant herself and a UN Goodwill Ambassador. Padma doesn’t hold back, offering candid advice for business leaders about speaking out on social and political issues, how to radiate authenticity on social media, and why it’s okay to take Zoom meetings from the comfort of your bed. The clock starts now, so let’s get to it. I’m Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

[THEME MUSIC]

I’m Bob Safian. I’m here with Padma Lakshmi, TV host, producer, author. Padma, thanks for being here.

LAKSHMI: Thank you for having me. Nice to see you, Bob.

Copy LinkPadma Lakshmi on her new show, America’s Culinary Cup

SAFIAN: Yeah, it’s been a little bit since we last connected. You’re no longer at Top Chef, such a great run. Your show, Taste the Nation, on Hulu, is going gangbusters, and now you’ve got a new start-up, America’s Culinary Cup, premiering March 4th on CBS. Do you like the start-up phase? Do you think of it as a start-up?

LAKSHMI: I don’t think of it as a start-up because I’m not a start-up person, I guess, but I do love the beginning stages of building a show. I find it very rewarding and stimulating. I think there’s a certain excitement and energy when you’re building something from scratch that is totally different from just being talent on a show. So I actually love the parts where I’m not on camera more, much more.

SAFIAN: See now that sounds like a start-up to me, a creative project that you’re moving a lot of things around, not all of them in your control, right?

LAKSHMI: Well, I mean it is definitely a creative project. When I think of start-up, I think of a tech company, and I mean I do have control over everything. I mean, I can’t control what the chefs do, obviously once we start filming, but I do have a say in every aspect of the show, down to wardrobe, down to what kind of salt we have in the pantry, what kind of lights we’re using, all of it.

There’s so much about this medium that I’m not an expert in, right? I don’t know what lens to use. Is that an 80 or 200 or whatever? So then it’s just about building a team, building your dream team. I had a body of experience that prepared me for this project, and it’s the biggest project I’ve ever done. We had probably, all told, 350 people on my crew. It’s like this big group comes together and builds this circus and it’s exciting.

SAFIAN: So America’s Culinary Cup, it has a million dollar prize, much bigger stakes than other cooking shows, some top, top chefs.

LAKSHMI: Yeah. Twice as big is the nearest prize. I had a lot of support from CBS who really wanted this show. They really gave me carte blanche. I really appreciate the faith that they had in me and how they treated me like an auteur, and to have that mutual respect from someone who’s heading as big an enterprise as CBS was life-changing.

SAFIAN: I was fortunate enough to get to see a sneak peek of the show, and I was struck –

LAKSHMI: Oh, good. Okay.

SAFIAN: – by how directly competitive and almost cutthroat it was. Was that a goal that you sort of, to construct it to be that way?

LAKSHMI: I wouldn’t use the word cutthroat. I would say I wanted – look, I thought that the genre needed an update, needed a refresh and a shakeup. One of the reasons that I left the genre was because I was bored, and I wanted to be stimulated like all of us when you do anything for too long. And so when every other show was zigging, I wanted to zag. I wanted to do a show that was purely about the pursuit of excellence. No tricks, no obstacles thrown in their way, no crappy equipment.

I wanted to develop a show that of course was a success for my own professional ego and for the accomplishment of it, but more than a successful show, I wanted to create a new culinary institution. I wanted a Bocuse d’Or for America. I didn’t want us to always keep looking towards France. I wanted to create a new tradition in our country based on traditions that were born here in America of fine dining.

Obviously it’s still a western European influenced culture, so it is French technique that comes in there, but I wanted to give these chefs every toy, every weapon, every ingredient of the highest caliber so that they could do their best. I want the Wimbledon of cooking. I want the Olympics of cooking. So if you’re going to ask Serena Williams to come and play, you’re not going to give her a shitty racket. You’re not going to give her a court that is not as manicured as possible, and that’s what I wanted to do for our chefs.

SAFIAN: Well, and who she’s competing against, who your chefs are competing against, that’s also part of the allure, right?

LAKSHMI: Yeah. I mean, you know, a million dollars is a big amount of money for anybody, so it brings out all kinds of chefs out of the woodwork that you would never think would even want to compete on TV. Everyone on that show, on our show, has a Michelin Star or a James Beard nomination or a James Beard win or a Bocuse d’Or medal or on and on and on. So we really beat the bushes. It was by invitation only. You could not apply.

I also wanted to make sure we canvassed the country well, and I know it is a show that every world-renowned chef would be proud to be on.  That kitchen, I had so many different chefs come in, whether they were competing or judging, and you’ll see them throughout the season, look around and be like, “I would kill to have a kitchen like this in my restaurant,” and that made me feel good.

So more than the million dollars, I want people to want to win that cup because that cup means something, and it will mean something after people have seen our show. Our show is governed by the principles of fine dining and what makes a great chef, great. All of the things that they have to master. Meat, vegetables, sustainability, consistency, innovation, science, and tech, all of those things that a well-rounded, world-renowned chef should master.

There’s no time where they’re sitting in a stew room arguing with each other. We don’t make them live together. They’re adults. We’re not sequestering them. We’re not taking their phones away. Their families can come visit them. They’re human beings and I don’t want to torture them. I want to support them. If they want to stay up all night and memorize Larousse Gastronomique, that is on them.

SAFIAN: Right, right. But that’s not your challenge.

LAKSHMI: It’s not my vibe. But I know what makes a good competition, I know what makes a good chef and I know I have a good palate to judge that.

Copy LinkLeadership lessons from Padma Lakshmi

SAFIAN: You mentioned you’re leading this team, 300 or so people. Are there particular mindsets that you go to when you’re leading a group like that? Any lessons you’ve learned or foundations you fall back on from your experience?

LAKSHMI: I think the biggest thing that I wanted to make sure I did was be clear. I think people respect someone with a very clear point of view and that they communicate that point of view to their crew. The worst thing is to be like, “I don’t know. What do you think?” When the head of the art department comes to you and says, “How would you like this to look in an ideal world?” You need to know that, you need to have envisioned that. You can’t be like, “I don’t know. What do you think?”

Before you ever start picking up a hammer or looking for locations, you have to see the show in your mind’s eye. And because I had thought about it for a long time and because I had made sure that I had conceptualized a show in great detail, I had all of the 10 Commandments before I ever got the green light for the show.

SAFIAN: Is it true that you take Zoom calls from your bed? I saw this somewhere. It’s something not a lot of bosses would feel comfortable with.

LAKSHMI: Yeah, I do.

SAFIAN: Or are you modeling behavior for your team, like, “Let’s not be too stressed, but also never stop working”? Like what?

LAKSHMI: I’m not trying to model anything. I am a workaholic. I get great satisfaction from what I do and any good immigrant, I usually have two or three jobs at once, and as you can imagine a responsibility like the show, it’s a really big swing for me. There were times when I was just tired, and so I didn’t want to go into the office. And yes, I do take Zoom calls in my bed, but that comes also with confidence. I wouldn’t have done that five years ago. I am not talking to the head of the network in bed. Although now if I did, she’d probably giggle at me, but as long as you get your work done and get it done to the highest standard possible, I don’t care. You know?

SAFIAN: Yeah.

LAKSHMI: I’m a creative. I’m not a corporate person.

SAFIAN: Over the years, you’ve been a central figure in the growth of food media, TV and books and so on. How do you think about the broader impact you are having? Are you trying to affect how food is produced and consumed? Food system, something broader?

LAKSHMI: I mean, I will tell you that I’m very concerned with how much food waste that this country has and that preys on my mind, and that’s why even on our show, we tell them, you don’t have to make anything more than a tasting portion. I mean, there are times when we’re testing for consistency where they had to make a hundred plates or whatever, but those also go to my crew, and we told them, “We’re going to give you this food, so keep a little space in your tummy open.” They were very happy to be able to taste the food. But I’m trying to do work that will outlast me.

I’m trying to follow my own convictions and act accordingly and eke out a living by doing so. When I took Top Chef, that job, I thought it would help my cookbook out a little. I thought I would give it a little boost. That was kind of cool. And when I started talking to Bravo, they were the network of Actors Studio. They were not the network of the Housewives.

Copy LinkRedefining what American food is

SAFIAN: I was thinking also there’s food’s impact on culture and even politics. Your book that came out in November, Padma’s All American, recipes and essays. You were born in India, you moved to the U.S. when you were four. You said the book was a rallying cry that we’re all American. Can you explain what you mean by that?

LAKSHMI: I think I was frustrated by the narrative that only people of European descent were quote, unquote, “real Americans” because the real Americans, if you want to be purist about it and honest about it, are people who are indigenous and part of the First Nations. And if you look at the cover, it’s me in front of the flag, but if you take off the jacket, there’s a picture of me with Twila Cassador who is an Apache woman who lives on the San Carlos Reservation and taught me how to forage in the desert, which is something I’ll never forget.

I wanted to do something that was illustrative of our culinary landscape in this country, a landscape that is not often given mainstream media attention. And so yes, of course, hot dogs and hamburgers, but those are also things that were brought here by Germans. If you want to know what real American food historically has been for 12,000 years before the Mayflower got here, whatever, it is squash, beans, and corn. It is elk, it is sumac. It’s not chicken and apple pie. Not one ingredient in apple pie is indigenous to North America, not even the apples. So I just wanted to make sure we called all of our influences and all of what makes this country amazing. Not only food-wise, but in general to the table.

SAFIAN: What does it mean to be as American as apple pie when nothing in apple pie is indigenous to the U.S.? Padma gets you thinking about what drives culture, about the deeper lessons of the food world. After the break, she shares her leadership tips on authenticity, bravery, and the confidence to be yourself, plus her perspective on the Trump Administration’s ICE program and its impact on all of us. Stay with us.

[AD BREAK]

Before the break, TV host and author Padma Lakshmi talked about how her new show, America’s Culinary Cup, is like the Wimbledon of cooking honors. Now, Padma talks about the legacy that business leaders should be mindful of leaving, how the U.S. government’s immigration crackdown makes her think differently about her own work and what drives true business authenticity. Let’s dive back in.

Copy LinkPadma Lakshmi on ICE and the immigration crackdowns

Your work, the book, the Hulu show, you’re drawing on multicultural experience, immigrant experience. With all the stuff that’s going on right now with crackdowns on immigration, how do you feel about that? How does that impact what you’re trying to do?

LAKSHMI: I feel horrible. I feel horrible about all of it. It’s unconscionable, it’s unethical, it’s immoral. It’s antithetical to what this country has not only been about, but what makes it so unique and singular on the world stage. I mean, there’s more migration today on Earth than there has been in the history of humankind, but America in particular is shaped and evolved into the superpower it is because of immigration, specifically because of immigration. Because we are able to attract talent from around the world and with the promise of, you can make your life here peacefully, and in turn, in exchange, make America better through whatever skill you bring, however you contribute to the economy, to the educational system, to the medical system or whatever.

And I think it is very short-sighted of this administration. I mean, it’s racist. Of course it’s racist. Let’s just call a spade a spade, but it’s also from pragmatic view, really stupid because first of all, all you have to do is open your social media to see this farmer who voted for Trump crying about carrots in his field that cannot be harvested because all of the people are scared and have run away and not come to work. We can thank Trump for that. He can thank Trump for losing his family farm, and if anyone else wants to pick that vegetable or fruit under those conditions for that money, they would have, but they don’t.

SAFIAN: When I talk to and ask business leaders about this kind of question, there’s a lot of wariness about being as clear about the way they feel as you are being here. They’re worried about poking the administration. They’re worried about alienating customers, potential audiences.

LAKSHMI: I understand.

SAFIAN: Do you worry about that?

LAKSHMI: I know that I turn some people who don’t think like me off. I know that I cannot credibly be anyone but who I am, and I think that me leaning into who I am has made me sleep better at night, but also has brought me a modicum of success that I feel I’ve earned. And so yes, of course I’m afraid of losing business, but I’m more afraid of losing my soul.

SAFIAN: Your new show is on CBS. You’ve talked about what great partners they’ve been. CBS itself has been a little bit of a lightning rod with the Paramount and Warner Brothers deal and what’s happening at Stephen Colbert’s show or 60 Minutes. Have you felt any of that?

LAKSHMI: To be honest, I have not because I’m not in the news department. I personally think food is very political, but the show we are making is not at all political.

Copy LinkAmerica’s evolving global identity

SAFIAN: You’re also a United Nations global ambassador. The environment around the UN has become more fraught also with this administration. Is what you hear when you go to other countries as an ambassador about America, is that changing?

LAKSHMI: I mean, it’s been changing for 10 years. It’s not just changing now. I remember having a book tour in India, early 2017, and I felt like I was Trump’s press secretary. People kept saying, “What is going on?” And so all I could say was, “I’m so sorry.” I kept apologizing and saying, “I’m so sorry. I didn’t vote for him. On behalf of all Americans, we are sorry,” and those such innocent times. But that was happening even 10 years ago, and I think it’s a shame because we have squandered a lot of the goodwill that America had in spite of its very questionable foreign policy for decades and decades.

We still had a lot of goodwill because we were that beacon on the hill. We were that shining light that said, “Listen, we don’t care where you’re from. As long as your values align with American values, i.e. the Declaration of Independence, i.e. the Bill of Rights, i.e. the Constitution, you too have a fair shot in this country.” And that is a beautiful sentiment, that the only club there is is what your efforts bring to the table or what your assets or resources, however you want to say it. That is a wonderful thing and very unique and something that I think every American can feel proud of, but it’s going to take decades to repair a lot of the damage that has been done and it’s too late. It’s too late to go back to how it was.

SAFIAN: That peoples’ trust in what we say we are as Americans doesn’t – 

LAKSHMI: No, not that, because I think people are intelligent enough to make the distinction between one man and his administration in office and the average American citizen. I mean it’s too late for, no matter what they do, what this administration does with ICE or border patrol or any of the other ways they’re trying to impede the natural progression of what this country looks like, they want a white America. They do. They want only European descendants to be in this country, and it’s too late.

It’s too late. Who’s going to program your computers? Who’s going to be your cardiac surgeon? And also the thing that is terrible, and I want to get away from this for a second, it’s not only about what you can contribute to this country, okay? A person’s worth should not only be based on their skills or resources. There’s nothing that is more valuable between my child and that child in the Congo and Gaza in Brazil.  My child’s blood is just as red as theirs. When we see each other that way, that will be a turning point, but this administration does not hold that belief at all.

SAFIAN: You integrate all of this into your work though too, right?

LAKSHMI: I’m lucky. I’m very fortunate, and I know this, to be able to make a living out of what naturally interests me. I didn’t get into food professionally until I was in my late 20s or almost 30, and so I was a literature and theater major. I was an actress, and then I made this change. Most of us spend most of our life at work, and so you’ve got to believe in what you’re doing because work is hard regardless. Even when you do, there are very difficult days and that’s why they call it work. So I think the more you can find a way to spend your time doing things guided by your principles, the happier one will be.

Copy LinkCultivating authenticity in leadership

SAFIAN: My producers were talking about the videos that you post with your daughter and how genuine your connection is to your community. A lot of the listeners of the show, they’re business people who are trying to come across as being authentic in their communications internally, social media, otherwise. Do you have a suggestion about how you do that?

LAKSHMI: It was hard, that understanding that I now have because for so long, especially when I was still an actor, I tried so hard to figure out and be what any one person who could give me the job wanted me to be. I mean, it’s inherent when you’re an actor I guess. But I have now realized that there’s a difference between trying to be authentic and just being authentic. One is conscious of an observer, of an audience. The other is not conscious of the self being observed. So obviously my videos are edited. They’re also edited to protect my child and certain privacy issues in my home. But I am like I am on those videos whether the camera is on or off, which is different, obviously. That’s a different version of me than you see on my television shows or in my op-eds for the Times or the Washington Post.

And it’s also a different voice than is in my cookbooks or my children’s book. So they’re all different versions of me, but in my home, that’s really what it’s like, and I don’t have the time or the bandwidth to concoct a different persona. 

How can corporate leaders be more authentic? The only piece of advice I have for them, especially when they’re doing media, whether it’s just an internal video or it’s something public facing, try to do it without the camera on or try to do it when you don’t know the camera’s on and someone on your staff that you trust, try not to be aware of being watched.

SAFIAN: Just have a conversation, right?

LAKSHMI: Just have a conversation. And an editor said this to me when I was writing my first book. “Don’t think you’re talking to everybody, ever. Pick one person in your orbit that is someone you respect, who’s intelligent, that you admire, and speak to them. Speak to an audience of one.” If you try to speak to everybody, then it becomes very performative.

SAFIAN: Well, the best way to come across as being authentic is to actually be authentic, right?

LAKSHMI: Correct.

SAFIAN: Well, Padma, this was so great. Thank you for doing it. It’s great to be able to get together and chat about all this.

LAKSHMI: Thank you so much for having me on. Bob, nice to see you again.

SAFIAN: I have to say, I found Padma’s reflections on ICE and the Trump administration refreshing. She’s unapologetically herself in a way a lot of business leaders wish they could be right now. While you could say that Padma isn’t beholden to the same stakeholders as a CEO, anyone with a platform like hers has something to lose, so I admire her courage in standing up for what she believes in. She’s clearly patriotic as her book, Padma’s All American underscores, and she’s trying to be true to that patriotism.

As for business lessons, to me, her advice for channeling authenticity resonates beyond social media. For leaders paralyzed by a seemingly polarized population, maybe don’t try to speak to everyone. Pick one person and truthfully articulate the values and mission of your company and your team. If we all do that, maybe we’ll find ourselves in a business environment that’s a touch more palatable. I’m Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.