AI music is Grammy eligible… for now

HARVEY MASON JR.: Some people have asked me if Grammy day is like Thanksgiving where you cook for hours and days and days and then you sit down at the table and you eat and it’s over in 15 minutes. But once the meal starts, I’m still cooking, I’m still picking, somebody dropped a fork, somebody spilled the drink. There’s always something happening to be in that room and that community of people and feel that energy and to feel surrounded by that much talent is kind of crazy.

BOB SAFIAN: That’s Harvey Mason jr., CEO of the Recording Academy, the organization behind music’s Grammy Awards. With the Grammys just ahead, I sat down with Harvey to talk about what’ll make this year’s show distinctive, why Latin music, legendary rock stars, and even AI artists are charting, and how the music business connects with the broader marketplace. So, let’s get to it. I’m Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

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I’m Bob Safian. I’m here with Harvey Mason jr., a songwriter, record producer, and CEO of the Recording Academy, which runs the Grammy Awards. Harvey, thanks for joining us. Thanks for being here.

MASON JR.: You’re kidding, it’s great to see you and great to be here. Thanks, Bob.

Copy LinkPreviewing the 2026 Grammy Awards

SAFIAN: Yeah. So, this year’s Grammy Awards are fast approaching. I have to say: my favorite awards show, amazing performances. Are you able to share what you’re most excited about for this year?

MASON JR.: I’m happy to share, but I’m excited that it’s your favorite award show. Otherwise, that would have been really awkward for me to be here. It’s going to be a celebration. We’ve had some events in the past few years, whether it was COVID or the fires or other issues that have kind of changed the tone of the event, sometimes for the better, because we’ve been able to accomplish some great things during those challenging times. But this year it’s going to be really about celebrating the best that music has to offer from the last year.

SAFIAN: Getting to really focus on the music, right?

MASON JR.: Yeah, I love it. Every time I get a chance to be in the building with all those incredible artists and performers and writers, it makes you feel something. And yes, we’ve had challenges in our show in the past. We’ve always managed to keep music at the forefront and use music as a powerful tool, a healing tool, a tool for impact.

SAFIAN: For all the big awards shows, TV viewership overall has sort of been trending down. Do you still focus on TV ratings for the Grammys foremost, or more on social chatter or video sharing? What makes a Grammy show a success?

MASON JR.: Well, you always have to consider TV viewers because that’s really the measure a lot of people go by. But for me and for us at the Academy, we also realize the traditional Nielsen ratings are not really the determinant of what makes a successful show. I think the impact, the reach, the activation around some of the digital stuff, the social output. Last year at one point we were the most interacted-with show on some social media platforms in the history of entertainment. So, those are the kind of things that excite us. It’s not just, “Okay, I’ve got three hours. Let me sit down and watch, exclusively, this one thing.” They’re going to do some of that. They’re going to do some of it on their phone. They’ll be on their tablet. They’ll be on different channels. So, we have tried to adapt and will continue to adapt to how people want to see, want to access and interact with our show.

Copy LinkHow the Grammys reflect the music industry

SAFIAN: This year’s awards come at an intriguing inflection point for the music business. I mean, the music business is always changing, but I was looking at your album of the year nominees, which features a bunch of mega artists: Justin Bieber, Tyler the Creator, Lady Gaga, Kendrick Lamar, Bad Bunny. I mean, how much do Grammy nominees reflect the marketplace?

MASON JR.: The Grammy nominees are meant to reflect the marketplace, and that’s our hope, but it really reflects the voter’s will. And you don’t know what’s going to resonate with the voting body year over year. We have roughly 15,000 voting members. Those members are all professional music people, whether they’re writers or arrangers or producers or artists. So, they’re the peers of the people that are being nominated. Sometimes they surprise you and they vote for something that I wasn’t thinking of and sometimes they are right down the middle. But the hope is that the nominations are a direct and unencumbered reflection of what the voters appreciate and want to vote for.

SAFIAN: And in this sort of more fragmented media ecosystem that we were talking about, do the biggest artists have the same kind of cultural sway, or is the cultural impact more diffuse?

MASON JR.: It’s debatable. Yeah. I’m sure everyone has an opinion, but the big artists are always going to be impactful and important and shift the direction of music. And there’s always going to be a new class of creators coming up.

SAFIAN: How do you stay up with it all, with all that volume coming out?

MASON JR.: Yeah, you can’t expect to keep up with all of it, there’s millions of songs released every week. But you find the stuff that you like, and then you go down a few rabbit holes. I’m sure you do the same thing I do. I like this and say, “Oh, you might like this.” And I click on that, and I’m listening to that, and then I go to the next layer down. I listen to a lot of friends’ references and recommendations and, “Oh, have you heard this new record?” I also talk to a lot of artists, and they say, “I’m working on this new project.” And I’m like, “Oh, that’s exciting. Can I hear?” Or I’m in a studio session with somebody and they say, “Oh, have you heard this?” So, you can’t listen to all of it, but you can try and enjoy as much of it as you can.

SAFIAN: KPop Demon Hunters, the animated band, sort of this breakthrough film, most watched movie ever on Netflix, but the album charted number one on Billboard also. Did that surprise you? Are there any messages in that about music and where it’s going in the future?

MASON JR.: It didn’t surprise me, because it was really, really good. And the message that it sends is you can come from anywhere, any country, any medium. You can come off a streaming platform, off a show, off of a garage studio. And if your music resonates, it’s going to be successful. It’s going to find an audience. And that’s what’s exciting to me right now about music is the diverse places where you’re finding it being created and sourced from. And also, the accessibility to audiences. You don’t have to record a record and then hopefully it gets mixed and mastered and hopefully somebody releases it and markets it the right way. You can make something and put it out. And if it creates an excitement or it touches the nerve, people are going to love it and gravitate towards it.

Copy LinkAI’s role in music creation and Grammy eligibility

SAFIAN: One of the bands that ended up putting up big streaming numbers was The Velvet Sundown, an AI-based artist. I’m curious, is there going to be a point where AI acts have their own Grammy category? Are there any award restrictions on artists who use AI in their music now? I know there was a lot of tumult about that with the Oscars last year with The Brutalist.

MASON JR.: AI is moving so darn fast, Bob, you know that. Month to month it’s doing new things and getting better and changing what it’s doing. So, we’re just going to have to be very diligent and watch it and see what happens. My perspective is always going to be to protect the human creators, but I also have to acknowledge that AI is definitely a tool that’s going to be used. People like me or others in the studios around the world are going to be figuring out, “How can I use this to make some great music?” And so for now, AI does not disqualify you from being able to submit for a Grammy. There are certain things that you have to abide by and there’s certain rules that you have to follow, but it does not disqualify you from entering.

SAFIAN: You’re a songwriter, you’re a producer. Are you using AI in your own stuff?

MASON JR.: I am. I’m fine to admit that I am using it as a creative tool. There are times when I might want to hear a different sound or some different instrumentation. Where could we use some interesting lyrics and give me some ideas? I’m not going to be the creator that ever relies on AI to create something from scratch, because that’s what I love more than anything in the world is making music, being able to sit down at a piano and come up with something that represents my feelings, my emotions, what I’m going through in my life, my stories. So, I don’t think I’ll ever be that person that just relies on a computer or software or platform to do that for me. But I do think much like auto-tune, or like a drum machine, or like a synthesizer, there are things that can enhance what I’m trying to get from here out to here. And if those are things that come in that form, I think we’re all going to be ultimately taking advantage of them.

But we have to do it thoughtfully. We have to do it with guardrails. We have to do it respectfully. What is the music being trained on? Are there the right approvals? Are artists being remunerated properly? Those are all things that we have to make sure are in place.

Copy LinkIs rock music making a comeback?

SAFIAN: I’d love to get your take on some trends. I see that rock music seems to be making a comeback, Metallica, Nirvana, Radiohead are on the charts, newer acts like Geese and Turnstile and Yungblud. Is this a fad, or are we going to see more rock ahead?

MASON JR.: I hope we will. I won’t use the word fad, but things are cyclical. There are times when certain genres of music are more popular than other times. This is a great time for rock, and I would love to see more of it. I mean, again, Bob, you’re talking to a music guy. I love all music. I want to see more of everything. So, yes to rock, yes to the future of it. I think as an Academy is concerned, making sure that we have the right members in our organization that can evaluate rock and say, “Oh, you know what? These are the songs that we think are the best rock songs for the last year. We have to make sure that we have relevant, knowledgeable voters in each of the genres.”

Copy LinkThe relationship between the Grammys and the Latin Grammys

SAFIAN: So, let me ask you then about Latin music. I know the Latin Recording Academy split off from the Recording Academy 20 years ago or so. Do you rethink that these days? I mean, Latin music is all over their mainstream charts, and plenty of acts are getting Grammy nominations. Should Latin music be separated out?

MASON JR.: The history of it is a little different. We were representing music, the Latin music on the main show, and the popularity of it demanded that we have more categories. So, in order to feature more categories and honor the full breadth of the different genres of Latin music, we created the Latin Grammy so they could have that spotlight.

Currently, members of the Latin Academy are members of the U.S. Academy. So, we’ve not set aside the Latin genres. We’ve not tried to separate them. We’ve only tried to highlight them and lift those genres up. As you know, in the U.S. show we feature Latin categories, we feature many Latin artists, and that will be the same this year, maybe more so, especially with the Bad Bunny success. So, in no way does that try to separate the genres. And I think we’ll see some more of that in the future as other genres and other regions continue to make their music even more globally known. It’s not just about music that’s made in one country, right? At least it shouldn’t be, it should be about music everywhere in the world.

SAFIAN: Instead of narrowing, you might have more, I don’t know, additional or supplemental academies or projects so that you have that expertise in those new and growing areas across the globe?

MASON JR.: Absolutely. We’re going to have to continue to expand our membership. In order for us to honor all the different music that’s being made now, which is more than ever and music coming from more places than ever, our membership has to be reflective of that. Just like, I don’t know what type of music you’re a fan of, but I wouldn’t ask you if you didn’t know everything about classical to go into the classical categories and say, “What did you think was the best composing?” Oh, there’s so many categories you wouldn’t be able to evaluate other than say, “Oh, I recognize that name. Let me vote for that.” And that’s what we can’t have. We have to have people that know the genres. And you’re seeing K-pop, you’re seeing Afrobeats, you’re seeing Latin, you’re seeing growth in the Middle East, you’re seeing growth coming out of India.

There’s so many great artists and so many great records. And you’re hearing a blend of genres where you’re seeing Western artists interact or collaborate with artists from different parts of the world. That’s what’s happening. You can’t argue it. You can’t deny it. You can’t pretend that it’s not what’s going on.

SAFIAN: And so, if I’m an expert in classical, I can vote on the classical categories, but maybe I’m not going to vote on the K-pop or the Latin?

MASON JR.: Regardless of genre expertise, you can vote in the general categories, which is song of the year, record of year, album of the year, best new artist, songwriter of the year, and producer of the year. So, those everybody votes on. After that, it gets into genre-specific fields and you have to pick a field. You say, “Hey, I’m an expert in classical, so I’m going to vote in those main six and I’m going to vote in classical.” So you’re not voting for best rock album of the year if you’re a classical musician who really knows classical. If by chance you are a classical artist that has written or worked in a rock field, then you’re entitled to vote in both. But we’re trying to really make sure that you’re not just grazing across the ballot to decide what you want to vote on.

SAFIAN: In case you missed it in there, yes, Harvey says AI is technically eligible to win a Grammy, as long as Academy members vote it in. Coming up next, how the Grammys deals with potential social action and boycotts at the show, plus where the music industry is and isn’t healthy and more. Stay with us.

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Before the break, Harvey Mason jr. of the Recording Academy talked about how Grammy winners are chosen and what might make this year’s awards distinctive. Now we talk about musical artists as activists and change agents, the strengths and weaknesses of the music industry, and how music sets the tone for the broader business marketplace. Let’s jump back in. 

Copy LinkNavigating politics at the Grammys

A lot of music artists aren’t shy about their positions on social and political issues. Spotify has faced a boycott from some artists in part because of things their founder has invested in, in part because of recruitment ads for ICE. How do you think about managing the messages that might come out during a live award show like the Grammys? How do you think about dealing with the conversations that people may want to have that’s beyond the art?

MASON JR.: We don’t get involved in policing, or warning, or encouraging the artists to do anything. The Grammy stage is a place for them to express themselves musically and accept an award that they’ve been given by their peers, which to me is one of the most exciting times in an artist’s life. What they do with their speeches and how they choose to conduct themselves or spend their time is entirely up to them. 

My hope is that we continue to focus on the music, because music is what brings people together. We’ve got a lot of things tearing us apart. A lot of things separating communities, separating cities, countries, parts of the geopolitics that are going on in the world. To me, music is the great unifier. It’s the healer, it’s the medicine. And as much as I encourage artists to express themselves how they choose. My hope is always that they’ll express themselves through love and togetherness and unity and healing and using the power that they have to make a difference in the world.

But again, we’re all artists. We have different beliefs. Some of us are crazy. Some of us are scared. Some of us have stuff in our past that we want to talk about that have affected us and made us these great creators. Again, if we try to handcuff that or hamstring that or pull back on that, then I think that’s really doing a disservice to the artist’s community.

SAFIAN: Some music is about bringing us together and love as you put it, but some is much more radical and more challenging. And some of that is part of what we turn to music for, but there are messages inside the music that not everyone’s going to be hot about.

MASON JR.: But that’s great. That’s the power of music.

SAFIAN: Yeah.

MASON JR.: That’s exactly what I’m talking about. When you’ve had events around the world, historical events, flashpoint moments, they’ve always been coupled by music. Sometimes music is coming before something big happens. So, we’re always going to stand for our creators’ rights to say what they want to say, to fight for what they want to fight for. In fact, on our advocacy team we are always jumping up and down on the desks of lawmakers saying, “You cannot censor artists’ rights and their ability to say things.” There’s an act called the RAP Act, which some prosecutors are using lyrics and songs as evidence in court. This is an example of people trying to tamper what artists say and how they say it and how they use their platform. And no time and no way will we ever support that.

SAFIAN: I mean, if part of your role is to protect the creativity and the independence of artists, it’s hard for you to say to somebody, “Hey, you can’t come into the Grammys wearing that hat or that shirt that has that message or something like that.” It undercuts your credibility.

MASON JR.: No, we don’t do that. There’s obviously certain standards from CBS’s perspective that they might have an issue with, but for us as an Academy, we just want to support the artists and their vision and their beliefs.

Copy LinkIs the music industry in a good place?

SAFIAN: What do you make of the health of the music industry overall? I mean, streaming seems strong, big audiences, the platforms will earn billions of dollars this year, but many individual artists get kind of meager payouts. I was looking at Spotify per stream royalties that average three tenths of a cent, which means I could get 800,000 streams a month and end up with the equivalent of $15 an hour in full-time work.

MASON JR.: It depends on how you define success of the industry. I would say as an industry, there’s a lot of success and there’s so much upside and there’s so much value being created right now. But the question that I have and that we all continue to think about is, is that trickling down to the people that the industry is being built on? Is that coming all the way down to the artists and the songwriters and the producers? And even the working class musician, how do we make sure that the success of the industry is shared by all the people that are working and helping to build that industry? And there are some discrepancies, disparity, I think, around how people are being paid. We’ll continue to try and advocate for those groups, but there’s more people participating in the music business than ever. There’s more people listening to music than ever.

And for me, those things all portend well for the future health of the business and for the individual. People ask me, “What’s your advice for an up and coming songwriter, producer, artist?” I say, “Make sure you’re figuring out how to utilize the technology and thinking about how it’s going to be monetized in the future.” Because at the end of the day, as much as we’re making art, we also want to be able to make a living. It’s definitely a nuanced question as to whether it’s healthy and who’s getting the benefit.

SAFIAN: The music industry has always been sort of hits based in a lot of ways. Like the dollars end up going to the top. In recent times, have the struggles for the average musician and musical artists, have they gotten harder? Have they gotten easier?

MASON JR.: They’ve gotten harder, but there’s a lot more of them, so it’s a bit of a catch 22. There didn’t used to be as many people participating in the creation of music. So the lower tier of those people might’ve been doing it slightly better, but right now there’s so many millions of more people and there’s such a disparity between the people that are being hyper successful and the ones that are struggling that you’re seeing more and more of those people at that lower level.

SAFIAN: Universal Music made a deal with NVIDIA recently. Others are making deals in the AI industry. Some artists are allowing AI companies to train models with their music and allowing fans to remix their music using AI, but others are litigating over copyright infringement. I mean, it’s messy out there.

MASON JR.: You can see it as messy or you can see it as there’s a lot of opportunity. It’s just going to take some strategic thinking and somebody to really figure out where the value is and how they want to participate in it. But there’s a lot of upside potential. You just have to work it through.

SAFIAN: It sounds like for each artist they have to be that much more sophisticated about the business side of their art so that they can make those decisions, as you’re talking about, about how to tap themselves into where the opportunities are most fertile.

MASON JR.: Probably so. And there’s always been a challenge for people who create to figure out how to monetize their creation, whether it was the record player and people were sitting in bars playing, “I just want to play my piano in this club. I don’t want to worry about making vinyl.” So, there’s always going to be advancement or iteration on what’s happening, and my community, we will persevere.

Copy LinkWhat’s at stake for the music industry right now?

SAFIAN: What do you feel like is at stake for the music industry, the music business, the music creators right now?

MASON JR.: For the creative community, it’s about how am I going to make something that makes people feel something? How am I going to connect to audiences? How am I going to find bigger audiences? For the industry and for the business, it’s about how to monetize that. To me, music really serves society. It serves the world. It serves all of us. Like you said, sometimes people are writing songs because they want to talk about a warm, fuzzy feeling. Some people write songs because they’re angry and sing songs because there’s something they want to change. Whatever side of the spectrum a song lands on, it’s serving the world. We got to make sure we’re uplifting and holding space and creating opportunity and a way for people to continue to do that and make a living doing it and have the freedom and space to be able to do it.

SAFIAN: I’ve asked you a lot about the role that business plays in music, but I’m also mindful that music plays a role in sort of leading the marketplace, kind of pointing out where our marketplace, where our culture, where we’re moving to.

MASON JR.: Music always seems to be a few steps ahead. The interesting and mysterious part about creatives is how they can sense where things are going. That gets put into music and that music really does set the tone for what’s happening or what’s going to happen. So, I agree with you. Music is unlike anything else. Its ability to make an impact is, you’ve got movies which are amazing and television is amazing, sports, food, but nothing moves as quickly and as accurately and as impactful as music.

SAFIAN: On the day of the Grammys, is it for you like a roller coaster? There’s sort of a plan, and just once it starts, I don’t know where it’s going to go. And what is your day like?

MASON JR.: Some people have asked me if Grammy day is like Thanksgiving where you cook for hours and days and days, and then you sit down at the table and you eat and it’s over in 15 minutes. But once the meal starts, I’m still cooking. I’m still picking. Somebody dropped the fork, somebody spilled the drink, somebody – there’s always something happening during the day. 

It’s incredible to be in that room and that community of people and to feel that energy and to feel surrounded by that much talent is kind of crazy. We’re always adjusting and we’re always dealing with something and problem solving. But at the end of the day, to me, it’s just so cool that we’re able to put a show. Sometimes, yeah, a light doesn’t come on or the stage rotates a different way, but we’re watching great music. We’re celebrating music. We’re seeing some of the coolest performances in the world that have ever happened.

So, you try to zoom out a little bit when the problems are happening and just really appreciate the moment that you’re in.

SAFIAN: Well, you’ve created something where all the artists are like, they’re trying to bring it. They’re trying to outdo each other, which is what allows it to elevate.

MASON JR.: I have young music people that are staring up at their television sets or on their screens and saying, “Wow, that person just killed it. I want to do that.” Or, “I’ve been inspired or moved to go back and write a song or to start singing or to focus on my dreams.” Those are the kind of things that happen in that room, not just for the people in the room, but also for those watching on TV.

SAFIAN: Well, I’m looking forward to watching, to cheering, to enjoying. And I hope you enjoy the rollercoaster, the Thanksgiving dinner, all those things rolled into one. Thanks again for doing this.

MASON JR.: All right, Bob. Good to talk to you, man. Thank you.

SAFIAN: Okay. So, I promise I’m not angling for an invite to the Grammys, but I really do marvel at the show’s live performances, in any field delivering in the heat of the moment when the spotlight is on. It’s inspiring and it’s what differentiates true talent. I want to highlight again, Harvey’s commitment that AI music is eligible for the Grammys, at least this year. It’ll be intriguing to see if that shifts as AI tentacles grow from the Velvet Sundown to Sienna Rose. Music is a universal experience and it’s also a business with universal lessons and challenges, echoes of choices and possibilities that reverberate everywhere. We can learn a lot about ourselves by observing other industries and by keeping our feet moving. So, keep watching, keep listening and keep dancing. The music of change doesn’t stop. I’m Bob Safian. Thanks for joining us.