AI as your career coach, with Logan Currie

LOGAN CURRIE: We all grow up in an education setting where there’s a teacher giving us a rubric and it’s like, okay, do these things and you will do well. And so to be in a world without a syllabus as adults is quite frightening in many ways.

RANA EL KALIOUBY: There isn’t one single guide to how to do your life. Logan Currie says this is why crossroad moments can be so challenging. What should you do after your Masters or PhD? What should you do when you want a new career challenge, but you also crave assurance that you’re making the “right” choice.

CURRIE: That is ultimately where we all find ourselves at many times in our careers, it’s like, okay, what do I do now?

I think that there’s so much complexity and nuance and uncertainty that it is a very stressful part about being an adult in the world. But I think that knowing yourself and knowing what you’re going after is the key starting point, I would say.

EL KALIOUBY: What if there was a tool that could help you figure out not only what you’re going after, but also what unique skills you have that can help you get there. Well, this is exactly what Logan is trying to do with her company Careerspan. Think of it as a career coach combined with a personal journal – all powered by AI.

On this episode we’re talking about AI career companions, how you can use them at any stage of your career, and of course what this all means for the future of work.

I’m Rana el Kaliouby and this is Pioneers of AI, a podcast taking you behind-the-scenes of the AI revolution.

[THEME MUSIC]

Hi, Logan, welcome to the show.

CURRIE: Thank you, Rana. Excited to be here.

Copy LinkHow lived experience shaped the idea behind CareerSpan

EL KALIOUBY: Logan and her co-founder Vrijen Attawar founded the company around two years ago. But Logan has had a dynamic career leading up to this point. She’s traveled and worked all across the world. She’s worked in a variety of different roles, mostly in education and college counseling. And she’s currently pursuing a Masters of Education at Harvard. I wanted to know how Careerspan fits into all of these different experiences. I’m always curious about that tipping point, where you’re like, I absolutely have to do this. I’m doing it.

CURRIE: Ooh, fantastic question. It’s quite a roundabout journey, I would say, but it’s always really clear in retrospect, which is the beauty of kind of storytelling and careers in general, right? You never know where things are headed, and then you look back on it, and you’re like, oh, this is the point where something really changed.

So I think in terms of my own journey as kind of an entrepreneur, a lot of it was around risk taking and building resilience. I lived and worked and studied in five countries. I learned a language kind of from scratch when I lived in Shanghai. I fell on my face so many times — when I first got there, I didn’t speak any Chinese, there were no language apps or anything like that, and trying to navigate getting on and off a bus was a total nightmare. Being able to be embarrassed, having zero ego is a big part of that journey of just falling on your face, learning, adapting, getting back up and trying again, adapting to different work cultures and styles. And throughout that, I think when I was working with students and young people, primarily for a long time, for 15 years now, it’s always been.

EL KALIOUBY: You were doing college counseling, right?

CURRIE: Doing college counseling, yeah. So I started 15 years ago helping a few students that I was teaching SAT to in Thailand. And that just developed over the years to helping people apply to undergraduate programs all around the world, graduate programs, and then they’d often come back to me to be like, I’m looking for an internship, I want to try to find a job. And I realized I saw this need for continued support, I would say, because I think that having somebody who knows you, who knows your history, and is kind of like just a sounding board — I have students who I literally worked with in 2009 who still contact me and they’re like, what do you think I should do?

And it’s never about me telling them what to do, right? It’s always about reflecting back to them, like, what do you think your options are in your own words? I don’t have all the answers. You probably do. He would come to me when he was applying to his MBA program, when he was doing his McKinsey interviews. He was like, Logan, what should I lead with? What’s in it?

And I would return it. And he would do the same for me when I applied to Harvard. He was like, lead with this story, and I had completely forgotten about it. And he knew something about me, and he was able to reflect that to me. So that’s kind of our vision with CareerSpan, is having a career companion to kind of accompany you at all of these different pivot points and inflection points throughout your career that you need somebody to help you out a little bit.

EL KALIOUBY: So I love the name career span. How did you come up with it?

CURRIE: All credit to Vrijen, I wish I could take credit, but we were talking about — I really do wish, he’ll hear this and be like, yeah, it was me — but I think we were talking a lot about what our vision was and around this companion element. And I think that we talk a lot about longevity and health and purpose when it comes to — or even your financial health, right?

It’s like, okay, how can you check in on what you’re doing in these different aspects of your life? But careers is often very reactive. It’s, oh, I’ve gotten laid off, I need to find a new job, or whatever it is. And it’s something that happens to you a lot of the time. And I think that we really saw a possibility in terms of let’s think about this in a proactive way and how you can leverage your own resources, your skills, your stories, your experiences to advocate for yourself over the course of your entire career.

Copy LinkWhy modern careers need more support and less guesswork

EL KALIOUBY: Yeah. So why do we need an AI powered or an AI career coach?

CURRIE: When we look at trends that are happening right now, I don’t know if you’ve heard the term 60 year career.

EL KALIOUBY: No. What’s that?

CURRIE: By a Stanford professor, so this is not mine, but it’s pretty well established research around — with increased human longevity, we’re living longer, we’re working longer, we’re pushing retirement back. So it’s no longer 40 years, it’s now probably more like 60 years.

And then if you combine that with Gen Z, which has an average job duration of about 2.2 years now. So if you do that math and you’re looking at maybe people are changing every two to three years, it’s no longer at the same company for 20 years. You’re actually looking at potentially between like 30, maybe 35 different jobs throughout your lifetime.

And a lot of those will be in different careers, in different settings. Maybe I want to change jobs. Maybe I also want to invest time or money in upskilling. All of these inflection points — it’s not just about changing jobs.

And a lot of people do not have access to the type of help and personalized support that would really guide them in these moments of time, right?

Copy LinkHow reflection builds confidence and career direction

EL KALIOUBY: Yeah, I love that. In a way you are literally democratizing access to these career coaches. I’m reading a book. It’s called the Wealth Money Can’t Buy by Robin Sharma. And there’s basically, I think there are eight, I’m halfway through the book, so there’s eight different types of wealth and one of them is health and one of them is financial wealth and then of course your relationships and one of them is your craft, right? And it’s kind of how do you draw meaning and purpose from your work and does career span help kind of help you think through that?

CURRIE: Yeah, I think it really does. I use the product fairly frequently. But when it comes to the busyness of day to day living, right? You’re picking your kids up, you’re doing all these things.

Self reflection often feels a little bit like a luxury, in the sense that you’re not going to sit down and journal, necessarily. Some people do, and I’m full of admiration. I can’t seem to find the time sometimes. But I think when you actually reflect on, let’s say, a project that you’re doing at work.

Or, and it can be in the past as well. It’s like, okay, well, I was managing this team or whatever it is — by talking about it and engaging in that reflection, you’re really engaging in metacognition, which is thinking about thinking, right? So you’re actually kind of retelling the story to yourself in a way that is really, really powerful because you’re then reflecting on, okay, I actually did use this skill set.

Huh, I wouldn’t have thought of that. Because you’re seeing each experience through the lens of where you are now, right? And you know more now. So you’re like, okay, actually, I do think that I was learning how to manage cross cultural teams or whatever it is. And you’re like, I now see myself in a different light.

So what really excites me when I talk to users all day long and I talk to job seekers all day long — and such a key part of what I really am proud of with the CareerSpan conversation model is that people feel a sense of confidence. So when you have this idea of, okay, let me reflect on, whether it’s.

The craft and you’re reflecting on what you’ve done, you get lost in the day to day, right? Like you’re like, oh, okay, I just did this thing. And having this supportive, guided conversation where it’s like, oh, it sounds like you’ve been really collaborating with lots of different types of people.

And you’re like, I guess I have. And it gives you a sense of — when you’re telling that story, it’s like a sense of self efficacy, which is a very education-y term, but self efficacy is very closely related to growth mindset. And it gives you a sense of what is possible in your own future.

Because you’re like, I am capable of doing this. And so that’s really what excites me because it’s giving you that sense of confidence in what you’re capable of.

Copy LinkWhat using an AI career companion actually looks like

EL KALIOUBY: So I want to give our listeners a sense of how career span works. And I was thinking about this and Jenna, my daughter is a senior at Harvard. And so she’s in the midst of this, right? She’s really thinking through what she wants to do next. So if she were using career span, what would the experience look and feel like?

CURRIE: So with our first product, we’re really trying to tackle the problem of that transition phase, right? Where it’s like, okay, I’ve done some things, I’ve studied some things, I’ve taken some interesting classes, I have these years of work experience, and I’m going for this particular role.

I have it in mind, the end is in sight, but how do I map my experiences onto the responsibilities that I will hold. So what you do is you upload your resume, it asks what that target role is, and then it essentially gives you what we’re calling the roadmap, where it’s taking what it knows about you from that brief glimpse.

And the resume is a pretty poor dataset, right? It’s very 2D. It’s super squashed down into one or two bullet points. And then it maps onto the responsibilities of that role. So let’s say that you’re going to be a project manager. And then for each responsibility, it suggests a story that you could use from your experiences, whether it’s a project that your daughter’s done, or whether it’s an internship, and it says, hey, this sounds like a good fit to talk about why you would be really good at this particular responsibility. Why don’t we go into a conversation? And you can choose what that looks like, right? So you can say, oh, I don’t actually want to talk about that one. So it gives you suggestions and you can be like, nah, I don’t like that one.

So we’re trying to enable that user agency, right? And then you go into this kind of guided conversation, which is not hard coded at all. It feels like a really supportive friend is listening to you. Like that kind of aunt or uncle that you meet with for a coffee and they’re like, oh, tell me a little bit more about that.

So they’re pushing your thinking a little bit, right? It’s about a five to ten minute conversation. You can talk, you can type, whatever you feel comfortable with. Some users like talking. We do encourage talking just because not as many people have that practice of verbally storytelling. But if you feel more comfortable typing, that’s fine too.

We do support over 30 language inputs as well. So if you’re more comfortable speaking in your native language, totally fine. And then it basically — if it’s an area of strength, it starts to — you have almost like a deck of cards. It’s like, I have all of these stories, and this story is about how I’m really adaptable. And then it tells you exactly how to use that in an interview.

It’s how to use it in a networking situation. So you essentially have all of these artifacts to get you ready to go into the application process. So that’s our first product kind of in a nutshell.

EL KALIOUBY: And presumably CareerSpan then remembers all these nuggets of stories so that the next time, I don’t know, you’re applying for a promotion or you’re transitioning again, it can remind you like Vrijen did with you when you were applying to Harvard.

CURRIE: Yeah. So we like to kind of — instead of Bridget and I getting to know each other over years and working together — we’d like to think that CareerSpan can get to know you much faster, right? So the more information that you give CareerSpan, the more stories that you tell, the more that we can do for you. So it is building out this kind of mental model of your experiences. I talk to job seekers all day, but one of the biggest problems that we see, and it’s a real problem, is that I don’t remember what I did. I don’t have any recollection of what that project was. And so essentially what we think of is marrying these skills that you’re building on in a job and the stories that communicate them — it’s building essentially a career IP, right?

Like that is what makes you marketable in the job market is your skills and your stories, and we’re creating a repository for you to be able to bring from one company to the next company when you change jobs, when you go from this to that, to being a grad student, to going to a new industry or new country. It goes with you in a way that.

You can continue adding to it. It’s an ongoing dialogue that really gives you a kind of dynamic understanding of yourself, and the system is updating dynamically as well.

EL KALIOUBY: We’re going to take a short break. When we come back, Logan explains why Careerspan is different than – say – ChatGPT and why we still need human career coaches in the age of AI. Stay with us.

[AD BREAK]

Copy LinkWhy a specialized career coach goes beyond generic AI prompts

For the savvy AI prompters listening right now, you might already use your chatbot of choice as a sounding board for your career questions. I know that I do. So I was curious: how is Careerspan different?

So I’m sure there’s a lot of our listeners who are thinking, okay, how is this different than ChatGPT? And I want to give you an example, for myself. So a while ago, three years ago now, I sold my company and at some point I was like, okay, let me kind of think about what am I going to do next?

And so I actually prompted ChatGPT. I said, you’re an executive career coach. You are advising Rana El Khaliouby on what she wants to do next with her career. And I said, she’s an AI thought leader, entrepreneur, scientist, investor, and I actually pasted my LinkedIn profile, right? And I was like, okay, so what kind of career ideas do you have for Rana?

And it came up with stuff that, like, you’d expect — do an AI council, like a women in AI fund. I was like, okay, interesting. An AI incubator. All like that. Speak at global AI conferences. And then I was like, come on, these are good, but they’re not really creative. Right. So I was like, additionally, Rana loves chocolates and mangoes.

So then it was like, ooh, like do the Choco Tech Summit or like Mango AI farming or like the — this is my favorite — a subscription box. Launch a monthly subscription box that delivers unique chocolate, mango, and smoothie recipes. And the twist: it’s AI that curates it. Anyway, fun stuff. But why can people not just use ChatGPT? Why do they need career.

CURRIE: I mean, I love using ChatGPT for all of that kind of stuff and I think that it’s valuable to explore, absolutely. I think the big question for a lot of people is, what’s next? How do you break.

EL KALIOUBY: Right. That’s true.

CURRIE: If you give it the right prompts, it can probably give you a whole 10 page document on how exactly you can go about this, but I think just because the information is out there, doesn’t mean it’s accessible to every person.

So I think it comes to the process and this is where my own background in education and kind of learning design comes in where I’m like, okay, well, how do we break down this information to meet you where you are?

So if you tell me, okay, I’m thinking about changing a job in six months. Cool. Well, I’ll give you a game plan to do that in six months, right? And yes, I think if you really wanted to, you could probably make your own game plan with ChatGPT for sure, but it’s not going to necessarily know you in that same way because what is it basing that recommendation off of? Right, so mangoes and you’re like, okay, cool, a subscription box with mangoes. But if you give it a much better kind of data set in terms of your experiences, that’s really what we’re basing it on. Because then it’s like, okay, cool, based on your goal, we know a lot about you in a very positive way, like a companion, and it’s like we can break down those steps for you in a kind of scaffolded way. How can I take you from where you are now to where you want to be, without making it just go do this?

Copy LinkWhat AI can do better than humans and where people still matter most

EL KALIOUBY: So on this podcast, we often talk about the implications of AI on jobs. You’re building an AI career coach. What can this coach offer that a real human coach, like you, couldn’t?

CURRIE: Ooh, that’s a good one. I mean, accessibility is the first thing that comes to mind in terms of both cost and time. Somebody who is essentially available to you 24/7. You don’t have to schedule it on Friday at 2pm or whatever it is. So I think just the constant availability is one.

I also think that when you’re building this relationship over time, human memory, as we said, is very fallible, right? So it is able to really be.

Yeah. Access that information of everything that you’ve told it about yourself and your experiences. In the future we plan on having you forward your performance evaluations or your self evaluations and to bring in different aspects of your own professional identity and experiences in a way that then really opens up some interesting opportunities in terms of not only informal learning like in the workplace — what skills is it picking up on that I wouldn’t even necessarily know that I’m building at the moment? And then if it brings that up to me, what are options that I could do with that? Do I want to continue to build out that skill set?

Where could I go if I were to?

EL KALIOUBY: I love that. Is there anything career span can’t do that we still need humans for?

CURRIE: Of course. I think we’ve done — we’re actually starting a few pilot programs with institutions who are working with cohorts of students, either at the graduate level or in upskilling programs.

And we’re essentially saying to them very honestly that this is helping you be more efficient in your time. Because a lot of times these human career coaches maybe are working on a one to 1700 student ratio. So they don’t have the time to devote to all of this kind of skill building and communication and all this stuff.

So where we say is that it fits into that flow of whatever your own programming is. So you can have exploratory conversations with a student — fantastic. And then you send them to CareerSpan, and they complete their roadmap. You have access, if they grant it to you, to see some of those stories, and to see their artifacts, and then you come back to the human career coach, and you’re like, okay, I need the empathy.

I need the excitement. I need the strategy that only human to human interaction, I think, can really offer. So it’s certainly not an end to end solution because at the end of the day, I think, especially when it comes to careers and when it comes to these big decision points, we’re not trying to make that decision for you.

We’re trying to help you reflect on what factors should go into that decision based on your experiences, based on a real understanding of who you are at this point in time. And that’s when it’s whether or not you have access to a career center or a mentor or somebody that you meet at a networking event or a coffee — everyone gets really scared of networking and they’re like, what should I even say?

If you have a better sense of who you are and what you’re looking for, and you’re able to communicate that cogently, confidently, super clearly, then that’s going to open up doors for you as well, right? So it’s not about replacing any human interaction, but it’s about optimizing those touch points that you do have to make sure that you’re getting as much information as you can.

Copy LinkHow to stay resilient as AI reshapes hiring and job security

EL KALIOUBY: Really cool. There’s a big concern in general, right, about AI replacing people’s jobs. Do you see that with any of the users you work with? And if so, how do you help them navigate this concern?

CURRIE: The big question, the elephant in every room these days. I think there’s replacing jobs, there’s augmenting jobs, there’s creating jobs, right? That’s kind of the three things that get talked about a lot. We talk to a lot of people who’ve unfortunately been laid off, whether it’s because of business decisions around prioritizing budget for future AI developments or whatever that is. And I think that’s where if you’ve been laid off, it’s all of those pain points that we talked about with a career transition all in one, pretty devastating time period.

And so it’s like, okay, now I need to get a new job and figure out what I should say and kind of figure out all the things that I have done before. It’s a shame because some people actually get locked out of their systems, right? They don’t have access to their email or their calendars anymore from their previous company, so then they’re like, I don’t even remember what I did and I can’t access the ways in which I could go back and kind of double check. So I think that’s another reason that we see a real need for a tool like CareerSpan to be that repository for people’s work in many ways, in that portfolio. Because if you’re actively building that over the course of a year or two or however long, then if you do get laid off — and I think that’s something on the back of everybody’s mind, is like, will I be replaced at some point?

Well, that’s exactly when you need to be able to pivot quickly and effectively and start to build out these other options to be proactive.

Copy LinkWhy authenticity matters in an AI driven hiring market

EL KALIOUBY: On this podcast, we’ve had Hilke Schellman on. She’s an investigative journalist and she wrote a book uncovering some of the biases that exist in hiring when a lot of companies are using AI for hiring and firing and promoting people. And it’s often because there’s a lot of unconscious bias built into these platforms. How do you help your users navigate on the other end when they’re applying, a lot of these companies are using AI? Do you run into that and how do you help your users navigate some of these biases? And also, how do you avoid building biases into CareerSpan?

CURRIE: Yeah, I think it’s a question on everybody’s mind and it should be because, whether humans are biased with unconscious biases and how are we building this into systems and proxies that make their way into — bias proxies that make their way into a lot of these algorithms. I was able to actually read Hilke’s book and it was fantastic.

I think that from our perspective, there’s so much noise in the market right now. Companies are really trying to test out a lot of new AI tools within their own hiring, whether it’s video interviews, whether it’s asynchronous kind of screening calls, whether it’s tinkering with the ATS algorithms, everything like this.

And what we see on, I think, both sides — and ChatGPT has both helped and hindered this, I think, because candidates are now able to use LLMs to their own advantage. And so it feels almost like this kind of arms race in a way where it’s like, okay, how much noise can we put into this already very stressed market in terms of — okay, recruiters and hiring managers are like, I’m getting 400 resumes and applications as soon as I post a job.

That’s not even possible because basically a lot of — there are companies out there who auto apply for you, right? So it’s essentially taking whatever materials that you have and they see a job on a job board and while you’re sleeping — this is part of their advertising — they’re like, okay, while you’re sleeping, you can be applying to jobs.

And I do worry about what that does for the majority of candidates who, quantity is not always the answer in terms of applications. It’s just let’s increase the quantity, let’s just apply to more jobs and see what hits. And I think that on the flip side with hiring, it does put a lot more pressure on.

On that selection system and whether that’s using AI or what we hear a lot is that people are just asking for referrals and that again comes back to the question of bias because it’s people with the right.

EL KALIOUBY: Access, right?

CURRIE: With access who are able to get the warm intros to get in front of the hiring manager, to bypass the resume submission entirely.

So I think, for CareerSpan, we believe that authenticity matters and that it will continue to matter well into the future. And how can you communicate about yourself authentically is kind of the big question that we are trying to tackle because we think that that’s going to continue to be a skill and a valuable one.

And whether that’s getting the warm intro, because you’ve talked about yourself really, really well, or advocated for yourself — essentially optimizing those touch points that you have with a bigger system. I think the goalposts will be continuing to change though, in the sense of how people are optimizing for this. And that’s why we’re proud that we’re not just trying to optimize for the last step, or like just for the resume or just for the cover letter, because I think so much of this is going to be changing quite quickly.

And I don’t think that the human connection will go anywhere anytime soon. So that’s where we’re focusing our efforts.

EL KALIOUBY: But there’s so much more that goes into building responsible AI beyond maintaining authenticity and keeping humans at the center. It’s also about how the technology itself is made. We get to that after a short break.

[AD BREAK]

Copy LinkHow the technology works and why personal career data matters

EL KALIOUBY: Let’s go behind the scenes and kind of talk about the technology that’s powering CareerSpan. So I imagine you’re using some form of generative AI. Talk us through that. Are you using off the shelf LLMs? Are you building your own? What kind of data are you using to kind of power these models?

CURRIE: So yeah, we’re right now using off the shelf. Our CPO and kind of data scientist, resident genius, Ilse Funkhouser is our kind of product person — three musketeers. She’s always telling us, let’s keep it simple. So at the moment, we are using off the shelf models, but we’re very much zooming in on trying to make sure that every single piece of the product is getting consistent results for users.

And a lot of that consistency will come with more manual chain of thought. How are we getting each tiny piece of this to build towards something greater? We’re really excited about building out more proper knowledge graphs of each individual and of their different relationships — projects they’re working on, things like that.

And I think that’s certainly where we’re heading when it comes to the way that it’s broken down in terms of data. We’re quite proud that we’re using primary source data. We’re literally using your voice, your stories. And so as far as the data set goes, it’s fairly pure. We scrub all PII. We have state of the art encryption. Your information is safe with us, and we’re only using your information and never giving it to anybody else. So that is a big part of what we’re doing.

And so that’s a big part of where we’re building the building blocks, I think, in quite a deliberate way that gives people that agency over their own data and information and shows them the ways in which we’re using it and helping them leverage it in different ways.

EL KALIOUBY: So what I’m hearing is that you are using these off the shelf models, but you’ve developed kind of a layer. Your IP is this career IP of your users because they’re then having to — I’m thinking about myself and thinking if I were using CareerSpan, that data doesn’t exist anywhere else.

These stories, they’re not on my LinkedIn. There may be some in disparate posts. They may be in my journal. I journal every day, but I don’t really talk about my career stuff in my journal. So it would be quite a unique data set. And if you do that at scale, I would imagine that there’s a lot of patterns and things you can see kind of emerge from that data.

Do you think about that data as being a competitive moat?

CURRIE: Absolutely. And I think that it’s also a moat that — there’s so much power in bringing that data and the results together in tandem. Because right now, again, there’s so much information out there and different pieces of advice on how you can get into one type of position or another. And where we’re building out kind of job tracker functionality, it’s like, okay, I have my kind of repo of my experiences. If I see a particular job that interests me, upload the job description and we can give you a game plan and your materials for that job. Then if you get the job, we know what resume you used, we know the materials that you’ve used, and then we can essentially start tracking those outcomes on your behalf. But also potentially be giving much better guides to other people trying to break into product management or whatever it is, because we can actually see what gets people into those positions, right?

So I think that’s what’s really exciting because that data set doesn’t exist. And it really democratizes that process in a way that is both results driven, data driven, and is hopefully in the benefit of a lot of people who would otherwise not know how to get into those positions.

And again, it’s such a charged moment when you’re looking for a job that it’s so stressful. I always tell this story — I just moved to Singapore. This was 2015, and I spent six months completely unemployed, applying to job after job after job with absolutely crickets. And it was, in retrospect, the worst thing because I was moving to a new city with no network, and I was trying to change roles and, you know, all those things that you know at the time. But I always tell this one example where I found this job that was perfect for me.

It was at Google and it was learning and development. And I was like, yes, this is like every single piece. And I spent like 48 hours just absolutely optimizing my resume. I did everything right. And I submitted. And then I messaged a friend who worked at Google and she was like, I’m so sorry. That role was filled internally like five days ago. And it was the most — it was so frustrating, obviously, but it was also just kind of humiliating and I was like, oh, of course I should have just messaged. I didn’t really know how it worked. But I think that frustration in terms of there’s so much hidden curriculum in what goes into the job search and what you’re presenting and how you should do it — that is the frustration that I really feel so keenly.

And I know that Vrijen does too. So there’s so much of our own backgrounds that we really build into approaching every single step with a lot of deliberation, with a lot of caution in terms of what we are helping users do and what we’re not doing as well. We’re not telling you what to do.

That’s not our place and that’s always been our coaching mentality too — let’s show you what you’re capable of and then you go and do it.

Copy LinkBuilding for a future where work still needs purpose

EL KALIOUBY: That’s great. You are an entrepreneur and I love that. I’m a recovering founder myself. What keeps you up at night?

CURRIE: I think what keeps me up at night — I mean, other than metrics around engagement, no, I’m joking — that’s probably the very real answer. I think that, back to your question around AI and the future of work — I have two kids who are three and five and I probably, when I stay up at night, am thinking about the world that they’re going to need to succeed in, and what skills they’re going to need and what jobs look like and what, again, back to that idea of purpose and fulfillment and what’s going to bring them a sense of value and allow them to bring their values to whatever they’re doing. Because I think that if you think about it in terms of a hierarchy of needs, that’s often the thing that comes at the top, right? Where it’s like, okay, do I feel this sense of purpose and what is it?

But I think that a lot of people, especially younger people these days, really want that sense of I’m contributing to something bigger and I want to make an impact. And I think that’s where I see — it keeps me up at night, but it’s also a real sense of hope for me because I think that people really want to have that sense of I’m doing something for the greater good in my nine to five. So I think it’s both optimism — but mostly optimism.

EL KALIOUBY: Amazing. Last question. If you could have AI do anything in the world for you, what would you have it do?

CURRIE: Laundry, but it’s maybe a little bit too real. I think if I could have AI do anything — I’m a big reader. I always read a lot myself and I love reading to my kids. And I think that I would love to have AI create like a personalized reading plan depending on what my kids are interested in and that kind of thing, ’cause I think there are a lot of interesting possibilities with personalized education. And that’s a big thing, but in terms of really tapping into a passion and how you can curate suggestions for individuals based on what they’re interested in, especially with books — because I don’t think books are going to be replaced anytime soon in terms of the value that they can really give you.

So I would say like a personalized reading coach, maybe.

EL KALIOUBY: I love it. Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s like the Netflix for books kind of thing. That’s great.

CURRIE: Okay, Rana, this is the company that we’re starting next, okay? We’ll finish.

EL KALIOUBY: All right, let’s do it. Yeah, that’s the crew.

CURRIE: Everything, and then, yeah, Netflix for books. I love it.

EL KALIOUBY: That’s great. Logan, this was awesome. Thank you for joining us.

CURRIE: Thank you so much for having me.

EL KALIOUBY: I am personally so excited about products like Careerspan — ones that have direct user impact and can help augment our abilities, not replace them.

Careerspan is an example of one kind of AI coach. I think we’re going to see more and more of these tools in all kinds of industries – from education to finance. Think an AI wealth advisor or an AI tutor. These coaches are there for you 24/7 … non judgmental … and can offer personalized advice. But AI coaches, to me, are not just about being more efficient. They’re also about unlocking our human potential.